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izzie
Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:10:01 AM

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Joined: 6/11/2007
Posts: 3,071
If it's a war, who started it? Here are some ideas.

In a completely rational society, the best of us would be teachers and the rest of us would have to settle for something less, because passing civilization along from one generation to the next ought to be the highest honor and the highest responsibility anyone could have. -Lee Iacocca
Tine
Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:01:13 AM

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Joined: 1/24/2007
Posts: 5,151
Location: Tosa
izzie wrote:
If it's a war, who started it? Here are some ideas.


Hasn't there always been class warfare, in the sense of competition for resources? I don't remember a time that the serfs gave their allegiance so gladly to their masters before, fighting for their masters to have more, but then I've only lived half a century or so.

We just haven't admitted what a class bound society we are before this.

Get off the teat?! We are the teat.
Nancy
Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2012 1:55:56 PM

Rank: Advanced Member
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Joined: 4/13/2007
Posts: 10,911
Location: East Side Wauwatosa
Tine wrote:
izzie wrote:
If it's a war, who started it? Here are some ideas.


Hasn't there always been class warfare, in the sense of competition for resources? I don't remember a time that the serfs gave their allegiance so gladly to their masters before, fighting for their masters to have more, but then I've only lived half a century or so.

We just haven't admitted what a class bound society we are before this.


I think that the serfs are fighting so hard to protect the resources of their masters because they secretly believe that they're going to be masters one day themselves. That's the aspect of the myth of the American Dream that verges on the delusional. There also seems to be a faulty belief that the master's riches will somehow benefit the serfs even though that rarely happens, if ever.

And don't cite Bill Gates...he's the exception, not the rule.

Hitchens’ Razor: What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
72nd Street
Posted: Friday, February 17, 2012 4:16:06 PM

Rank: Advanced Member
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Joined: 7/5/2010
Posts: 68
Location: Fort Sam Houston, San Antonio, TX
Nancy wrote:

I think that the serfs are fighting so hard to protect the resources of their masters because they secretly believe that they're going to be masters one day themselves. That's the aspect of the myth of the American Dream that verges on the delusional. There also seems to be a faulty belief that the master's riches will somehow benefit the serfs even though that rarely happens, if ever.

And don't cite Bill Gates...he's the exception, not the rule.



Your post is beyond ridiculous.

Bill Gates is the exception only in the huge amount of success he has had. Now he uses some of the massive amounts of money he has made to operate a business that provides jobs to some 55,000 Americans. Shame on him, eh?

Small businesses around the country provide jobs for individuals and (hopefully) profits for the owners.

What exactly is your problem with the American Dream? It has been great to many Americans, and good for all of the rest.
Zorro
Posted: Friday, February 17, 2012 6:59:46 PM

Rank: Advanced Member
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Joined: 6/8/2009
Posts: 657
izzie wrote:
If it's a war, who started it? Here are some ideas.


Zorro is disturbed that Zorro has missed this thread.

Zorro tells you that the solution is simple. What would Zorro do!

Zorro would steal from the rich and give to the poor!

Zorro tells this Ozzie the solution is obvious.

Esta habitación ya está manchada de sangre ... un poco más no hará ninguna diffrence! - Don Diego
rubber
Posted: Friday, February 17, 2012 8:18:24 PM

Rank: Advanced Member
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Joined: 3/17/2008
Posts: 1,689
Location: tosa
72nd Street wrote:

Your post is beyond ridiculous.

Bill Gates is the exception only in the huge amount of success he has had. Now he uses some of the massive amounts of money he has made to operate a business that provides jobs to some 55,000 Americans. Shame on him, eh?

Small businesses around the country provide jobs for individuals and (hopefully) profits for the owners.

What exactly is your problem with the American Dream? It has been great to many Americans, and good for all of the rest.


I have several close friends who are small business owners. Their life is not the life of a "master" as Nancy was eluding to. I had visions of Izzie's CEO's in my head and not the owner of Stu's flooring or a local real estate mogul when I read Nancy's piece.

I have no problem with the American Dream. I have problems with the Enrons, the Solyndra, Countrywides, the ponzi schemers, the Goldmen Sachs, the auto companies, and the governments that either turned a blind eye or supported these companies. Sure, their workers got paid, but it was the CEO and executives that made out like bandits.

How many times have we seen a business go under (and pensions get taken over by the government) while the CEO gets a great severance?

What is beyond ridiculous anyway? Ludicrous?
beck
Posted: Friday, February 17, 2012 8:19:13 PM

Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 10/31/2009
Posts: 1,108
72nd Street wrote:
Nancy wrote:

I think that the serfs are fighting so hard to protect the resources of their masters because they secretly believe that they're going to be masters one day themselves. That's the aspect of the myth of the American Dream that verges on the delusional. There also seems to be a faulty belief that the master's riches will somehow benefit the serfs even though that rarely happens, if ever.

And don't cite Bill Gates...he's the exception, not the rule.



Your post is beyond ridiculous.

Bill Gates is the exception only in the huge amount of success he has had. Now he uses some of the massive amounts of money he has made to operate a business that provides jobs to some 55,000 Americans. Shame on him, eh?

Small businesses around the country provide jobs for individuals and (hopefully) profits for the owners.

What exactly is your problem with the American Dream? It has been great to many Americans, and good for all of the rest.


Her problem with it is she failed in attaining it. I too have worked hard and have the American Dream, but there are always losers in the game of life like Nanbo here who want us all to be as miserable as she.



“Productiveness is your acceptance of morality, your recognition of the fact that you choose to live–that productive work is the process by which man's consciousness controls his existence, a constant process of acquiring knowledge and shaping matter to fit one's purpose, of translating an idea into physical form, of remaking the earth in the image of one's values–that all work is creative work if done by a thinking mind...” | Atlas Shrugged
rubber
Posted: Friday, February 17, 2012 8:22:51 PM

Rank: Advanced Member
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Joined: 3/17/2008
Posts: 1,689
Location: tosa
If you're not miserable... why hate so much?
Nancy
Posted: Friday, February 17, 2012 10:11:00 PM

Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/13/2007
Posts: 10,911
Location: East Side Wauwatosa
72nd Street wrote:
Nancy wrote:

I think that the serfs are fighting so hard to protect the resources of their masters because they secretly believe that they're going to be masters one day themselves. That's the aspect of the myth of the American Dream that verges on the delusional. There also seems to be a faulty belief that the master's riches will somehow benefit the serfs even though that rarely happens, if ever.

And don't cite Bill Gates...he's the exception, not the rule.



Your post is beyond ridiculous.

Bill Gates is the exception only in the huge amount of success he has had. Now he uses some of the massive amounts of money he has made to operate a business that provides jobs to some 55,000 Americans. Shame on him, eh?

Small businesses around the country provide jobs for individuals and (hopefully) profits for the owners.

What exactly is your problem with the American Dream? It has been great to many Americans, and good for all of the rest.


Gates is the exception in that he passes his wealth on to others in several ways, including the fact that he pays his employees well. Just employing 55,000 people is not enough unless you pay them a living wage. Making billions while employing workers at minimum wage is not the American Dream. It's a nightmare and it's exploitation.

The American Dream used to mean hard work leading to a job, a house, a car, maybe a summer cottage, college for the kids, a nest egg, a pension. It used to be that most people could look forward to earning a piece of the American Dream, but this is no longer so. My issue is not with American Dream. It's with people who profit from other people's work and their misfortune, and then use their wealth to buy more useless crap than they'll ever need or use in a hundred lifetimes. These are the people who are killing the American Dream for the rest of us, so it's ironic to see ordinary people defending preferential treatment for the super rich as if this might benefit them somehow.

And rubber's right...I'm not talking about small businesses. I'm talking about the big businesses that dominate and muscle small businesses out of existence.





Hitchens’ Razor: What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
beck
Posted: Friday, February 17, 2012 10:25:54 PM

Rank: Advanced Member
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Joined: 10/31/2009
Posts: 1,108
Quote:
Gates is the exception in that he passes his wealth on to others in several ways, including the fact that he pays his employees well. Just employing 55,000 people is not enough unless you pay them a living wage. Making billions while employing workers at minimum wage is not the American Dream. It's a nightmare and it's exploitation.
.


Bill Gates like to play philanthropist in public.

He likes to go around making believe he actually cares about people and wants to help them.

But if he cares so much about people, why does he run slave labor factories to make his Microsoft products?

http://seattle.cbslocal.com/2012/01/10/hundreds-threaten-suicide-at-microsoft-supplier-plant-in-china/

“Productiveness is your acceptance of morality, your recognition of the fact that you choose to live–that productive work is the process by which man's consciousness controls his existence, a constant process of acquiring knowledge and shaping matter to fit one's purpose, of translating an idea into physical form, of remaking the earth in the image of one's values–that all work is creative work if done by a thinking mind...” | Atlas Shrugged
izzie
Posted: Saturday, February 18, 2012 1:38:13 AM

Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 6/11/2007
Posts: 3,071
beck wrote:
But if he cares so much about people, why does he run slave labor factories to make his Microsoft products?

Thanks for posting. The Chinese government should consult with Walker. Next step is unionization. I'm surprised you're not obsessed with stopping this mass suicide ploy in its tracks. Next thing you know they'll be wanting their health insurance paid for . . .

In a completely rational society, the best of us would be teachers and the rest of us would have to settle for something less, because passing civilization along from one generation to the next ought to be the highest honor and the highest responsibility anyone could have. -Lee Iacocca
Nancy
Posted: Saturday, February 18, 2012 2:09:01 PM

Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/13/2007
Posts: 10,911
Location: East Side Wauwatosa
izzie wrote:
beck wrote:
But if he cares so much about people, why does he run slave labor factories to make his Microsoft products?

Thanks for posting. The Chinese government should consult with Walker. Next step is unionization. I'm surprised you're not obsessed with stopping this mass suicide ploy in its tracks. Next thing you know they'll be wanting their health insurance paid for . . .


The irony in beck's posting this as an indictment of Microsoft did not escape me, either. The article includes a list of multi-national corporations(including "Song," which I'm guessing is really Sony) that use Foxconn to develop and manufacture their products. If you scratch the shiny surface of most American corporations, you'll probably find sweatshops. American capitalism in the 21st Century is sustained by slave labor. Consider all the clothing manufacturers that rely on sweatshop labor to produce their overpriced wares. Given that beck clearly worships at the altar of capitalism, I'm surprised that he would find Microsoft's methods objectionable.

Hitchens’ Razor: What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
izzie
Posted: Saturday, February 18, 2012 4:49:01 PM

Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 6/11/2007
Posts: 3,071
Nancy wrote:
Given that beck clearly worships at the altar of capitalism, I'm surprised that he would find Microsoft's methods objectionable.

When your personal philosophy and resultant political views are completely self serving (as per the Limbaugh gospel) you can't help but end up in glaring inconsistencies pretty often. For instance, "Obama bad; Catholic church good" will make your head hurt if your goal is 100% consistency. A simple Venn diagram exercise will prove it to you.

In a completely rational society, the best of us would be teachers and the rest of us would have to settle for something less, because passing civilization along from one generation to the next ought to be the highest honor and the highest responsibility anyone could have. -Lee Iacocca
beck
Posted: Saturday, February 18, 2012 5:18:13 PM

Rank: Advanced Member
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Joined: 10/31/2009
Posts: 1,108
Nancy wrote:
izzie wrote:
beck wrote:
But if he cares so much about people, why does he run slave labor factories to make his Microsoft products?

Thanks for posting. The Chinese government should consult with Walker. Next step is unionization. I'm surprised you're not obsessed with stopping this mass suicide ploy in its tracks. Next thing you know they'll be wanting their health insurance paid for . . .


The irony in beck's posting this as an indictment of Microsoft did not escape me, either. The article includes a list of multi-national corporations(including "Song," which I'm guessing is really Sony) that use Foxconn to develop and manufacture their products. If you scratch the shiny surface of most American corporations, you'll probably find sweatshops. American capitalism in the 21st Century is sustained by slave labor. Consider all the clothing manufacturers that rely on sweatshop labor to produce their overpriced wares. Given that beck clearly worships at the altar of capitalism, I'm surprised that he would find Microsoft's methods objectionable.


There is no irony in my post at all dear, I am simply proving you wrong once again if you take the time to follow the thread...I have no problem whatsoever of Microsoft maximizing my ownership value with the use of Foxcomm....it is you who holds this man up to sainthood, and I prove you wrong, again. Look in the mirror, not at beck.

“Productiveness is your acceptance of morality, your recognition of the fact that you choose to live–that productive work is the process by which man's consciousness controls his existence, a constant process of acquiring knowledge and shaping matter to fit one's purpose, of translating an idea into physical form, of remaking the earth in the image of one's values–that all work is creative work if done by a thinking mind...” | Atlas Shrugged
beck
Posted: Saturday, February 18, 2012 5:19:50 PM

Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 10/31/2009
Posts: 1,108
izzie wrote:
beck wrote:
But if he cares so much about people, why does he run slave labor factories to make his Microsoft products?

Thanks for posting. The Chinese government should consult with Walker. Next step is unionization. I'm surprised you're not obsessed with stopping this mass suicide ploy in its tracks. Next thing you know they'll be wanting their health insurance paid for . . .


Typical emotive thinking of a baby boomer effete male, how about finding a happy medium between the overpaid lazy union stooge culture and the under paid, over worked Chi Com's?

“Productiveness is your acceptance of morality, your recognition of the fact that you choose to live–that productive work is the process by which man's consciousness controls his existence, a constant process of acquiring knowledge and shaping matter to fit one's purpose, of translating an idea into physical form, of remaking the earth in the image of one's values–that all work is creative work if done by a thinking mind...” | Atlas Shrugged
Happytransplant1
Posted: Saturday, February 18, 2012 5:37:18 PM
Rank: Advanced Member
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Joined: 11/15/2011
Posts: 304
Location: Tosa Eastside
beck wrote:

I have no problem whatsoever of Microsoft maximizing my ownership value with the use of Foxcomm....


I understand your thinking: Communism is only good when it inflates the value of your stock portfolio. Corrupt gubmit is good as long as it inflates the value of your stock portfolio. Gubmit forced abortions and female infanticide is good as long as it inflates the value of your stock portfolio.

And here I thought someone so anti-government, anti-communist, and pro-life, like you, would invest only in companies that upheld your immbeccably high moral and ethical standards.



"When you walk through the door of opportunity, you do not slam it behind you. You reach back and help others succeed."
~Michelle Obama, Septemebr 04, 2012~
beck
Posted: Saturday, February 18, 2012 5:42:36 PM

Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 10/31/2009
Posts: 1,108
Happytransplant1 wrote:
beck wrote:

I have no problem whatsoever of Microsoft maximizing my ownership value with the use of Foxcomm....


I understand your thinking: Communism is only good when it inflates the value of your stock portfolio. Corrupt gubmit is good as long as it inflates the value of your stock portfolio. Gubmit forced abortions and female infanticide is good as long as it inflates the value of your stock portfolio.

And here I thought someone so anti-government, anti-communist, and pro-life, like you, would invest only in companies that upheld your immbeccably high moral and ethical standards.



Ignorance is certainly bliss for you Happy.. Foxconn isn't owned by the Chi Com's, here since you claim to have such a great business acumen read about this company here http://www.foxconn.com/CompanyIntro.html I am sure your idea of traveling is going to Cudahy, but if you get a chance visit Hong Kong and Bejing sometime, it is capitalism on red bull a wonderful site to see. No one is forced to work at Foxconn, it is employment at will.

“Productiveness is your acceptance of morality, your recognition of the fact that you choose to live–that productive work is the process by which man's consciousness controls his existence, a constant process of acquiring knowledge and shaping matter to fit one's purpose, of translating an idea into physical form, of remaking the earth in the image of one's values–that all work is creative work if done by a thinking mind...” | Atlas Shrugged
Nancy
Posted: Saturday, February 18, 2012 5:52:29 PM

Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/13/2007
Posts: 10,911
Location: East Side Wauwatosa
beck wrote:
Nancy wrote:
izzie wrote:
beck wrote:
But if he cares so much about people, why does he run slave labor factories to make his Microsoft products?

Thanks for posting. The Chinese government should consult with Walker. Next step is unionization. I'm surprised you're not obsessed with stopping this mass suicide ploy in its tracks. Next thing you know they'll be wanting their health insurance paid for . . .


The irony in beck's posting this as an indictment of Microsoft did not escape me, either. The article includes a list of multi-national corporations(including "Song," which I'm guessing is really Sony) that use Foxconn to develop and manufacture their products. If you scratch the shiny surface of most American corporations, you'll probably find sweatshops. American capitalism in the 21st Century is sustained by slave labor. Consider all the clothing manufacturers that rely on sweatshop labor to produce their overpriced wares. Given that beck clearly worships at the altar of capitalism, I'm surprised that he would find Microsoft's methods objectionable.


There is no irony in my post at all dear, I am simply proving you wrong once again if you take the time to follow the thread...I have no problem whatsoever of Microsoft maximizing my ownership value with the use of Foxcomm....it is you who holds this man up to sainthood, and I prove you wrong, again. Look in the mirror, not at beck.


What a buffoon you are. Bill Gates is the guy the right likes to point to as a poster boy for capitalistic altruism. I've never held him up for sainthood, though I do think it's a fact that he's more generous with his money than many of his capitalistic cronies. It's also a fact that he hasn't been CEO of Microsoft since 2000, so it's hard to pin the Foxconn scandals on him.




Hitchens’ Razor: What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Nancy
Posted: Saturday, February 18, 2012 5:56:45 PM

Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/13/2007
Posts: 10,911
Location: East Side Wauwatosa
beck wrote:
Happytransplant1 wrote:
beck wrote:

I have no problem whatsoever of Microsoft maximizing my ownership value with the use of Foxcomm....


I understand your thinking: Communism is only good when it inflates the value of your stock portfolio. Corrupt gubmit is good as long as it inflates the value of your stock portfolio. Gubmit forced abortions and female infanticide is good as long as it inflates the value of your stock portfolio.

And here I thought someone so anti-government, anti-communist, and pro-life, like you, would invest only in companies that upheld your immbeccably high moral and ethical standards.



Ignorance is certainly bliss for you Happy.. Foxconn isn't owned by the Chi Com's, here since you claim to have such a great business acumen read about this company here http://www.foxconn.com/CompanyIntro.html I am sure your idea of traveling is going to Cudahy, but if you get a chance visit Hong Kong and Bejing sometime, it is capitalism on red bull a wonderful site to see. No one is forced to work at Foxconn, it is employment at will.


If Foxconn is so fabulous, then what was the point of the article you posted? It looked to me like you posted it because you thought it made Bill Gates look like he condoned poor working conditions at Foxconn, but now you're praising Foxconn. So that would make Bill Gates, or whoever actually contracts with Foxconn, look good...right?

Hitchens’ Razor: What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
beck
Posted: Saturday, February 18, 2012 6:04:59 PM

Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 10/31/2009
Posts: 1,108
Gosh you really are a ditz.

Quote:
If Foxconn is so fabulous, then what was the point of the article you posted?



Quote:
Gates is the exception in that he passes his wealth on to others in several ways, including the fact that he pays his employees well. Just employing 55,000 people is not enough unless you pay them a living wage. Making billions while employing workers at minimum wage is not the American Dream.



http://seattle.cbslocal.com/2012/01/10/hundreds-threaten-suicide-at-microsoft-supplier-plant-in-china/

Get it dingbat? He isnt the exception, he is doing the same as Steve Jobs did...maximizing shareholder value. Gates is the largest single holder of shares of MSFT btw.

“Productiveness is your acceptance of morality, your recognition of the fact that you choose to live–that productive work is the process by which man's consciousness controls his existence, a constant process of acquiring knowledge and shaping matter to fit one's purpose, of translating an idea into physical form, of remaking the earth in the image of one's values–that all work is creative work if done by a thinking mind...” | Atlas Shrugged
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