Tosa Town Square
Welcome Guest Search | Active Topics | Members | Log In | Register

<<Boards Main>>
rubber
Posted: Saturday, May 05, 2012 7:41:54 AM

Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 3/17/2008
Posts: 1,689
Location: tosa
After one year in the public school system...

I do not think unionized teachers are the primary problem of public schools. I believe it is the programs these non-unionized administrators are purchasing. Everyday math is a farce and I can't remember what the reading program is but the progress is abysmal.

I have to believe that 95% of the students in my child's class would be at higher level given a different program (one example... Montessori).


tosatownie
Posted: Saturday, May 05, 2012 8:38:55 AM

Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 2/22/2007
Posts: 2,772
Location: wauwatosa
Just wait it gets worse.

TT
Nancy
Posted: Saturday, May 05, 2012 12:11:26 PM

Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/13/2007
Posts: 10,911
Location: East Side Wauwatosa
rubber wrote:
After one year in the public school system...

I do not think unionized teachers are the primary problem of public schools. I believe it is the programs these non-unionized administrators are purchasing. Everyday math is a farce and I can't remember what the reading program is but the progress is abysmal.

I have to believe that 95% of the students in my child's class would be at higher level given a different program (one example... Montessori).




I agree with you. I've been saying this for a long time. The teachers teach what they're told to teach. They bring their own knowledge and skills to the enterprise, but there's not much they can do if they're mandated to follow a flawed curriculum.

School administrations also go a long way toward protecting teachers who really are incompetent.

Hitchens’ Razor: What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
izzie
Posted: Saturday, May 05, 2012 2:28:34 PM

Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 6/11/2007
Posts: 3,071
rubber wrote:
I do not think unionized teachers are the primary problem of public schools. I believe it is the programs these non-unionized administrators are purchasing.

I agree, too. A generation ago we were heavier on teachers and leaner on administrative staff. A federal department of education may have done some good, but weighed against all the superfluous pencil pushing it's caused (and consequently all that extra staffing at every school district in the country), I think they should abolish it. Let Arne Duncan retire or write a book or something. I'd love to see more decision making in the hands of the teachers, just as I'd like to see more health care in the hands of the doctors. Better results all around.

In a completely rational society, the best of us would be teachers and the rest of us would have to settle for something less, because passing civilization along from one generation to the next ought to be the highest honor and the highest responsibility anyone could have. -Lee Iacocca
cuddles
Posted: Sunday, May 06, 2012 10:57:43 AM

Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 2/13/2007
Posts: 3,211
Sigh.

Don't outsmart your common sense.
Nancy
Posted: Sunday, May 06, 2012 12:20:55 PM

Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/13/2007
Posts: 10,911
Location: East Side Wauwatosa
The Department of Education is almost 150 years old and has probably done far more good than harm. Unless Arne Duncan persuades Congress to pass a law mandating the teaching of Everyday Math in every school in America, then he and the Department of Education are not the problems. I think you can find the problems much closer to home for most Americans. We could probably start with the idea that any enterprise can be improved with additional layers of bureaucracy and take it from there (and private industry is not immune...the middle management disease is rampant there as well).

Hitchens’ Razor: What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
izzie
Posted: Sunday, May 06, 2012 1:59:07 PM

Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 6/11/2007
Posts: 3,071
Nancy wrote:
The Department of Education is almost 150 years old and has probably done far more good than harm.

Does the horrid and burdensome NCLB ring a bell? Then, when the national school nightmare should have ended after the Bush years, here comes Duncan, a privatizer whose “background” in education mainly involved who he was connected to from his Chicago years, rather than his own actual education or any teaching experience.

Our indefatigable TTS reference source (Wikipedia) offers this nugget about his era in Chicago:
Opinions vary on Duncan's success as CEO; one prominent publication notes improved test scores and describes Duncan as a consensus builder, while another finds the improvements largely a myth and is troubled by the closing of neighborhood schools and their replacement by charter schools, and what it describes as schools' militarization.

Doesn’t that just say a mouthful? And, from there, right on up to the nation’s top school administrator. Would remind you of the Beverly Hillbillies if he weren’t such a silver spoon type.

Let me know something that the Department of Education has done in the last generation to make education better that couldn’t have been accomplished more efficiently in individual districts. "What have you done for me lately?" is sometimes the pertinent question.

Rick Perry famously wanted to eliminate the Department of Education (along with just about every other GOP candidate). I admit they’re on the right track with that one.


In a completely rational society, the best of us would be teachers and the rest of us would have to settle for something less, because passing civilization along from one generation to the next ought to be the highest honor and the highest responsibility anyone could have. -Lee Iacocca
cuddles
Posted: Sunday, May 06, 2012 4:23:11 PM

Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 2/13/2007
Posts: 3,211
izzie wrote:
Rick Perry famously wanted to eliminate the Department of Education (along with just about every other GOP candidate). I admit they’re on the right track with that one.


I agree with them and you, Izzie.

In Wauwatosa, what say did parents have when the district decided on Everyday Math?

Don't outsmart your common sense.
beck
Posted: Sunday, May 06, 2012 4:49:20 PM

Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 10/31/2009
Posts: 1,109
cuddles wrote:
izzie wrote:
Rick Perry famously wanted to eliminate the Department of Education (along with just about every other GOP candidate). I admit they’re on the right track with that one.


I agree with them and you, Izzie.

In Wauwatosa, what say did parents have when the district decided on Everyday Math?


They had listening sessions throughout the district with some 6 figure clown whose title was Math Expert or something. This was rollled out as something that the University of Chicago recommended so it had to be good. Typical Tosa meeting, 1/2 of the room sat silent, 1/4 of the room was pumped up and excited because they never question the district, and 1/4 of the room against it because it was obviously a bunch of crap.

Typical Tosa parents folded under the advice of the district, and anyone who questioned them was shunned .

“Productiveness is your acceptance of morality, your recognition of the fact that you choose to live–that productive work is the process by which man's consciousness controls his existence, a constant process of acquiring knowledge and shaping matter to fit one's purpose, of translating an idea into physical form, of remaking the earth in the image of one's values–that all work is creative work if done by a thinking mind...” | Atlas Shrugged
rubber
Posted: Sunday, May 06, 2012 5:40:12 PM

Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 3/17/2008
Posts: 1,689
Location: tosa
I remember my child's teacher mentioning that they're "tweaking" the program for next year. I'll have to ask her if they (the district) are doing the tweaking or if this is some type of Everyday Math Version 1.x

Happytransplant1
Posted: Sunday, May 06, 2012 6:14:57 PM
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 11/15/2011
Posts: 304
Location: Tosa Eastside
beck wrote:
cuddles wrote:
izzie wrote:
Rick Perry famously wanted to eliminate the Department of Education (along with just about every other GOP candidate). I admit they’re on the right track with that one.


I agree with them and you, Izzie.

In Wauwatosa, what say did parents have when the district decided on Everyday Math?


They had listening sessions throughout the district with some 6 figure clown whose title was Math Expert or something. This was rollled out as something that the University of Chicago recommended so it had to be good. Typical Tosa meeting, 1/2 of the room sat silent, 1/4 of the room was pumped up and excited because they never question the district, and 1/4 of the room against it because it was obviously a bunch of crap.

Typical Tosa parents folded under the advice of the district, and anyone who questioned them was shunned .

We also never had a say when they lowered the grading scale from 70% passing to 60%.... all it really did is increase teh number of kids passing, and inflating those who otherwise would qualify for college. In the end, it increased the cost of college by having to retake high school level courses.

Oh well, our house policy never changed.

"When you walk through the door of opportunity, you do not slam it behind you. You reach back and help others succeed."
~Michelle Obama, Septemebr 04, 2012~
Nancy
Posted: Sunday, May 06, 2012 7:33:24 PM

Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/13/2007
Posts: 10,911
Location: East Side Wauwatosa
izzie wrote:
Nancy wrote:
The Department of Education is almost 150 years old and has probably done far more good than harm.

Does the horrid and burdensome NCLB ring a bell? Then, when the national school nightmare should have ended after the Bush years, here comes Duncan, a privatizer whose “background” in education mainly involved who he was connected to from his Chicago years, rather than his own actual education or any teaching experience.

Our indefatigable TTS reference source (Wikipedia) offers this nugget about his era in Chicago:
Opinions vary on Duncan's success as CEO; one prominent publication notes improved test scores and describes Duncan as a consensus builder, while another finds the improvements largely a myth and is troubled by the closing of neighborhood schools and their replacement by charter schools, and what it describes as schools' militarization.

Doesn’t that just say a mouthful? And, from there, right on up to the nation’s top school administrator. Would remind you of the Beverly Hillbillies if he weren’t such a silver spoon type.

Let me know something that the Department of Education has done in the last generation to make education better that couldn’t have been accomplished more efficiently in individual districts. "What have you done for me lately?" is sometimes the pertinent question.

Rick Perry famously wanted to eliminate the Department of Education (along with just about every other GOP candidate). I admit they’re on the right track with that one.


I get that you don't like Arne Duncan, but how much hands on involvement does he have with 'Tosa schools? It's easy to take potshots at a distant figure and much more difficult to change the schools that matter most to our own children. What do you think Arne Duncan could do to make 'Tosa schools better?

Hitchens’ Razor: What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
zephyr
Posted: Sunday, May 06, 2012 7:51:29 PM
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 10/26/2007
Posts: 425
Location: Tosa
cuddles wrote:
izzie wrote:
Rick Perry famously wanted to eliminate the Department of Education (along with just about every other GOP candidate). I admit they’re on the right track with that one.


I agree with them and you, Izzie.

In Wauwatosa, what say did parents have when the district decided on Everyday Math?


If parents want to have a say in curriculum choices, they actually have to say something.
Happytransplant1
Posted: Sunday, May 06, 2012 10:09:41 PM
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 11/15/2011
Posts: 304
Location: Tosa Eastside
zephyr wrote:
cuddles wrote:
izzie wrote:
Rick Perry famously wanted to eliminate the Department of Education (along with just about every other GOP candidate). I admit they’re on the right track with that one.


I agree with them and you, Izzie.

In Wauwatosa, what say did parents have when the district decided on Everyday Math?


If parents want to have a say in curriculum choices, they actually have to say something.



That is, of course, if parents know (or are informed) about curricula changes.

"When you walk through the door of opportunity, you do not slam it behind you. You reach back and help others succeed."
~Michelle Obama, Septemebr 04, 2012~
Tine
Posted: Monday, May 07, 2012 8:37:14 AM

Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 1/24/2007
Posts: 5,151
Location: Tosa
Happytransplant1 wrote:
zephyr wrote:
cuddles wrote:
izzie wrote:
Rick Perry famously wanted to eliminate the Department of Education (along with just about every other GOP candidate). I admit they’re on the right track with that one.


I agree with them and you, Izzie.

In Wauwatosa, what say did parents have when the district decided on Everyday Math?


If parents want to have a say in curriculum choices, they actually have to say something.



That is, of course, if parents know (or are informed) about curricula changes.


To the extent that education was better "before" (pick your better time), it wasn't because parents tweaked the curriculum. Parents paid little or no attention to curricula. The school taught what they taught, and by gum you'd better go with the program.

Math education was better or worse because whatever style was in vogue fit a particular kid's learning style okay, or because the teacher was good enough to explain and inspire using more than one way of looking at things.

We also had a much more uniform "canon" of knowledge and information to transmit than we do now. And for most of history, school learning was a combination of rote and orthodoxy (a direction in which we seem to be heading again).

The notions of individualized learning and teaching how to think were not available to many. The democratization of public education spread that to the point where we can all be indignant about how it's failing.





Get off the teat?! We are the teat.
izzie
Posted: Monday, May 07, 2012 10:21:57 AM

Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 6/11/2007
Posts: 3,071
Tine wrote:
The notions of individualized learning and teaching how to think were not available to many. The democratization of public education spread that to the point where we can all be indignant about how it's failing.

I don’t know about that, but you’re close. Years ago teaching was more rote, but some now look at that era as the good old days and they're right in a way. People memorized long poems and big blocks of Shakespeare, and I think it was good for their brains in general, regardless how specifically practical it turned out to be.

Now we play video games.

By “democratization” I assume you mean we educate (or try to) everybody today. Of course overall quality will degrade as you try to reach 100% coverage. Why some people can’t grasp that simple concept is beyond me.

In a completely rational society, the best of us would be teachers and the rest of us would have to settle for something less, because passing civilization along from one generation to the next ought to be the highest honor and the highest responsibility anyone could have. -Lee Iacocca
Nancy
Posted: Monday, May 07, 2012 11:58:36 AM

Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/13/2007
Posts: 10,911
Location: East Side Wauwatosa
The article is not about using Call of Duty or World of Warcraft in the classroom setting. It's about a specially designed game that was developed to help teach technology. It sounds like it also helps develop problem solving.

The fact that a few teachers may use computer programs as teaching aids is not the problem. Like it or not, proficiency with modern technology is critical for anyone who wants to succeed in most endeavors in the future. Shielding kids from technology will limit their options.

The problem is that kids aren't learning to read, write and do basic math. Basic tools for learning and video gaming are not mutually exclusive. I would also argue that mastering a complex video game environment is probably at least as good for the brain as memorizing Shakespeare.

Why does teaching all kids degrade education? What do hard to educate kids have to do with Everyday Math and the adoption of Whole Language to teach reading? Which kids do you think should be denied an education so we can boost the "overall quality?"



Hitchens’ Razor: What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Happytransplant1
Posted: Monday, May 07, 2012 1:02:57 PM
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 11/15/2011
Posts: 304
Location: Tosa Eastside
Nancy wrote:

Why does teaching all kids degrade education? What do hard to educate kids have to do with Everyday Math and the adoption of Whole Language to teach reading? Which kids do you think should be denied an education so we can boost the "overall quality?"



Do you remember tracking? A system of assigning kids to a classroom based on ability. They are many cons, but generally I think that it is beneficial for both high and low ability and/or quick or slow learners. (Noting that slower learners may not equate to low ability.)

"When you walk through the door of opportunity, you do not slam it behind you. You reach back and help others succeed."
~Michelle Obama, Septemebr 04, 2012~
Nancy
Posted: Monday, May 07, 2012 1:09:43 PM

Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/13/2007
Posts: 10,911
Location: East Side Wauwatosa
Happytransplant1 wrote:
Nancy wrote:

Why does teaching all kids degrade education? What do hard to educate kids have to do with Everyday Math and the adoption of Whole Language to teach reading? Which kids do you think should be denied an education so we can boost the "overall quality?"



Do you remember tracking? A system of assigning kids to a classroom based on ability. They are many cons, but generally I think that it is beneficial for both high and low ability and/or quick or slow learners. (Noting that slower learners may not equate to low ability.)


I do remember tracking. I think that mainstreaming was a mistake, but not the idea that every child should be educated.

Hitchens’ Razor: What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
cuddles
Posted: Monday, May 07, 2012 5:06:18 PM

Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 2/13/2007
Posts: 3,211
Nancy wrote:
Happytransplant1 wrote:
Nancy wrote:

Why does teaching all kids degrade education? What do hard to educate kids have to do with Everyday Math and the adoption of Whole Language to teach reading? Which kids do you think should be denied an education so we can boost the "overall quality?"



Do you remember tracking? A system of assigning kids to a classroom based on ability. They are many cons, but generally I think that it is beneficial for both high and low ability and/or quick or slow learners. (Noting that slower learners may not equate to low ability.)


I do remember tracking. I think that mainstreaming was a mistake, but not the idea that every child should be educated.


How do we educate all children to basic proficiency levels with such limited resources? This weekend we were discussing the closure of Wing Academy. Those high needs (cognitive and physical) will be sent back to neighborhood schools. Of course, the kids already at those neighborhood schools will see a decline in their education. There just aren't enough resources to go around.

Don't outsmart your common sense.
Users browsing this topic
Guest


Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.
Classified
Looking for a used car, a new job or a place to live? Search our interactive online classified ads.

Jobs | Cars | Homes
Rentals | Personals | More
Shopping
Yellow Pages
Find goods and services from local merchants in the online yellow pages.

Search